Living Legacy - Wasted Opportunity?

[Rooks]

Right so, EQ1 player from 1999-2005, EQ2 player for 1 month when the game released in Nov 2004.

Saw the living legacy promotion and thought I'd revisit both EQ1 and, because I'd heard good things about it, EQ2. Now the idea of creating a promotion that allows former players to explore the current game is great because, if done right, it could boost server populations and convince people to play again. However, just dumping people back into the place where they logged off and hoping they enjoy it doesn't cut mustard I'm afraid. As mentioned, I played an Enchanter (to L14) in EQ2 for the first month of it's life but I didn't really like the game - it was too different from EQ1 and I couldn't get into it. Logged onto EQ2 for the first time in 3 and a half years last week and the first thing that happens is that I'm told that I've now been auto-assigned as an Illusionist. Okay, class changes, no problem except that the game now spends 3 minutes dumping new spells on me. Haven't a clue what they do and the tooltips aren't that obvious either. Then I'm dumped into an empty Qeynos and thats it. No clues as to what to do next, remember that it's been well over 3 years since I played. So I wander into an empty Antonica and try and complete some quests that I still have. Gah, it's as boring as I remember...

After an hour some passing character (L68) comments that I probably should be in Kunark as it's better for leveling and a darn site more interesting. He also comments that I have been given a teleport to there as part of Living Legacy. Doh! So I teleport there and it's still empty but at least the quests are more interesting.

My gripe is that most returning players will need hand-holding to get back into the game. Do this, go there, welcome back etc. Just enough to learn the ropes again and get an idea of what's new in the game. We former players need to be convinced that it's worth returning full-time and dumping us in the middle of an empty zone with no hints isn't going to help in that regard. A short in-game refresher tutorial may have helped, especially something that mentioned the teleport This isn't a "Wahh I want it easy" post, I really don't want that. But it's been over 3 years and both games have changed so much. It's overwhelming and theres no in-game assistance in either game. (I sat in EQ for a while wondering what I should be doing too).

Done right, the LL campaign could bring in a lot of old players who are bored with their current games and could happily get back into EQ or EQ2. But dumping them in game as they do isn't going to win many returnees over, it's certainly put me off

[Tipa]

It's for sure it's best to level alongside other folks. I am thankful I had that opportunity THREE times -- on Erollisi Marr, on Stromm, and now on Luclin.

On EQ2 I mostly leveled alone...

[Sisca]

I know that coming back to either of these games after 3 years or so can be a bit overwhelming, especially in the case of EQ. However there isn't a lot that the game itself can do to ease that transition if you, the player, decide to jump back in where you left off.

I know when I first jumped back on EQ I started going back to my old characters and I had trouble even figuring out how to move. I decided that my best bet was to start from scratch as if I was a new player. Both EQ and EQ2 have pretty good tutorials now and both do a good job of giving you the basics of gameplay and at least giving you the tools you need to explore and figure out the more complex stuff on your own. You're also much more likely to have other players around in the tutorial areas.

[Stargrace]

I agree with sisca, expecting to pick up exactly where you left off after three years (games wait for no one) is going to be daunting no matter the game. The tutorials that come with a new character are very helpful, as well as all the other people running around those areas - at least until someone feels comfortable going back to their 'old' characters.

[Rooks]

Well for me EQ and EQ2 are different propositions because I played EQ for 6 years and EQ2 for just a month. But I'm guessing the idea of the Living Legacy campaign is to convince ex-players to return on a full-time basis and on this level it just fails for me, it really does. You guys are right when you say that both games have decent tutorials but that assumes the player will want to start from scratch but why would they want to do that when many returning players probably have characters at higher levels already. And whilst starting a new character will help refresh the basics, each class is so different that you'd probably want to start a character of the same class again.

I think I was expecting both games to make more of an effort in this campaign. Freebies are great but I have no idea what half the new stats are for, whether the gear is better than what I have and so on. What I think they should have done is a short refresher tutorial for all levels that explains what's changed in the game, where best to go at your current level, maybe a refresher quest or two that allows the player to get back into the swing of things, heck I didn't even know the Bazaar had moved to the Plane of Knowledge or that the Oasis of Marr is no more It's one thing to get a player to return but a whole different problem in keeping them. Many returning players return to a game where their previous guilds have long since vanished and friends have moved on, they are going to feel quite alone and overwhelmed by both games (I certainly was, though surprisingly my old guild still exist and are going strong. I only recognised two players but still ) The EQ2 experience really put me off giving that game another try and that's a real shame because I hear that it's really quite good now.

[Stargrace]

Well. There's a few issues with those things.

Number one, all the changes that have occurred while you've been gone are unique on a person to person basis. There are notes you can read to see what's changed and also there are npc in PoK who tell you where you should be for your levels, explain gear, and explain how Norrath has changed while you've been gone. They can't exactly customize it to when YOU left the game, since different things have changed for different people. Three years is a LOT of time gone by. They've done great I personally think with what they DID offer to players. Some effort has to be made on the players part too. I think expecting to just jump onto an old character that's sat stagnant in an active game for 3 years is sort of.. well. Silly.

The resources are there, the game can only do so much though, and what they have done, is really nice. It's more then any other game's done to try to bring players back.

[Sisca]

I wouldn't expect you to want to completely start over if you had a higher level character but there's nothing wrong with starting up a newbie and jumping into the tutorial until you get your bearings back. I too played EQ for over 6 years, hell I was even a guide for awhile, and when I first came back I couldn't even remember how to initiate a quest. Going through the tutorial acted as a refresher for me without having to try and jump back into combat at the high end where there's less room for error.

Still I can see a lot of people coming back that have been playing something like WoW for awhile and getting frustrated and leaving. EQ is an extremely difficult game that REQUIRES a community to help each other out. EQ2 is a bit more forgiving but can still be confusing without someone to turn to. In comparison WoW is, as a friend of mine once said, "like being spoon fed pablum".

I guess the good news is there are pretty active and welcoming communities for both EQ and EQ2 you just have to ask around. In EQ go to the guild hall and ask around, there's always someone there. In EQ2 I recommend the tradeskill channels, they're the most active chatters. In both cases I've found most people to be more than willing to help out a new or returning player if they ask nicely.

[kyriell]

My gripe is that most returning players will need hand-holding to get back into the game. Do this, go there, welcome back etc. Just enough to learn the ropes again and get an idea of what's new in the game.

I'm pretty certain that it told me that there are new NPCs in PoK to help out returning players. I didn't actually talk to them, so I don't know, but, was there something wrong with them?

I've also seen the suggestion before to create a new character, not to start over, but just to relearn to basics. You could then have your hand held in the new tutorial zone. Seems a common sense thing to me.

I was perfectly fine just walking around safe zones first, relearning the UI, setting my hotkeys etc, then killing trivial mobs to settle back into the flow of the game, before going back to regular play. It's not that hard, it's not like piloting a space ship or something.

EQ has always been a game where players were expected to take some initiative and responsibility. I'm glad I didn't come back to find it turned into another WoW.

A lost opportunity? I don't think so, seeing all the people who have come back and are enthousiastically playing and rediscovering EQ. I've played with quite a few of them, both old friends and people I've never met before. WITH being a keyword here. Living Legacy will be over soon now and it remains to be seen how many people stick around, but at least it brought a lot of people back so far. Sure, I've heard a lot of "I'm still getting used to things again", or "how did this work again?", but people help each other out - that is also EQ, and I haven't heard anyone whine or complain. Not even the people who had parked their character in the middle of Kael where they are KOS, or in Kedge Keep, because they knew they did that to themselves.

While you are of course entitled to your opinion, from my experience meeting other returning players, they generally don't share it.

[Rooks]

Sorry but EQ isn't WoW, it requires a certain amount of knowledge and skill to play some classes effectively at certain levels. Playing a Level 5 Enchanter is totally different to playing a L67 Enchanter and the tutorial is no help unless you plan on playing that character going forward. I remember the skill involved in charm kiting mobs in Halls of Honour, you don't play in that style at Level 5 and that's one of the great things about EQ. And why would you want to play a low level character on a server with hardly anyone to group with and a 5 year old economy? The best idea I've heard is that Sony should have released a brand new server (something they've talked about for the last year) at the same time. Now that would have convinced people to continue after their free-time. I would have been more inclined to play a new character had that been the case. They'd be people to group with, everything would be new and it would give people a chance to find new friends. Essentially it would have reminded people of the great things about the game.

Let's remember the point of this campaign which I assume is to convince ex-players to rejoin the game. This was Sony's chance to really sell the game, convince people that this is the place to be. Forget WoW, forget AoC, forget EVE - it's EQ that you want to play. They are selling the game to old players but I felt it was more like "Here's the game, like it or lump it". I hear what you guys are saying but you are thinking like subscribers. They don't need to convince you to return, you already have.

The real litmus test is whether people actually continued to play the game after the trial. I still have a few friends on my old server and they tell me that the population has dropped back to pre-living legacy. Sure there's a few players that stayed but most didn't. Does anyone know how successful this campaign actually was?

A lost opportunity? Yes I think it was. It certainly failed miserably on my old server.

[Tipa]

Starting a new character in EQ hasn't been easy for years. A bunch of us started together and that made it possible at all. I was totally uninterested in returning to the game where I left off; starting new was the only possible way to enjoy EQ for me.

[kyriell]

A lost opportunity? Yes I think it was. It certainly failed miserably on my old server.

We have a fellowship going now with 7 people at the moment. 6 are former players who returned, 5 coming back from WoW, and one left WoW with us and is now playing EQ for the first time, and doing fine. We're playing daily, progressing nicely, and having a lot of fun. And I know several other players who returned. Just because you want Living Legacy to be a failure, it isn't one, and you're going to have a very hard time convincing those who see returned players every day, and play with them.

Part of your problem seems to be that you have forgotten how to play the game, and you want Sony to come out and hold your hand. Well I'm sorry but EQ never was the Kindergarten game you want it to be, and I haven't heard anyone else wanting that. But exactly because of Living Legacy, we run into all kinds of friends, people help each other, people figure things out, no problem.

Kiting Halls of Honor? Coming back after years and going straight into HoH to kite, that would be kinda stupid, not? How about instead, joining a group in BoT? Did you look long enough to see that that is a hotzone and there are always groups looking for more there? Why start with the hard stuff? You do know that the new expansions that Living Legacy gave us access to, include lots of very kiteable outdoors zones of all levels? Regardless, my necro kited HoH basements just fine, including the unsnareable NPCs that spawn occasionally. It's not the rocket science you are trying to convince us it is.

No, the tutorial is to get through that phase of, errr which key do I press to attack, etc. Obviously it's not going to teach you how to kite HoH. You expected a GM to come hold your hand for two weeks of personalized lessons on how to charm kite HoH on your 67 enchanter? Seriously?

A new server? What is the point of that to returning players, who have existing characters of all levels, some of them almost as old as the game, and various friends who still play and guilds they used to play with. I don't want a new server and neither do the returning friends I play with, we want our game and our characters back that we left, that was the whole point. However, if you have to start over, you can of course do that, but people aren't leveling in the same zones anymore that they did 9 years ago. If you want low level people to play with, go play in Blightfire Moors. Regardless, you're never going to see as many new players leveling up as in the old days; on the other hand, it's a lot easier now.

I'm not trying to convince you to come back to EQ. I just don't agree with your lost opportunity view. Not at all. It's about the opposite of my own experience and that of the friends I play with.

It sounds like you are simply burned out on EQ and not coming back no matter what. But trying to convince those of us who are playing and enjoying the game how bad it all is, is futile.

[Sejal]

I'll say this:

I had quit playing I don't recall hgow long ago. Without Living Legacy, I'd most probably not be playing now. I did start a new character because I don't think I could bear to remove my original main from the guild he is in (Even though they aren't raiding any more) to move him to another server.

There is enough new stuff in EQ that I have done next to nothing that I did before. Only Akheva looks the same as I remember it so far. Its almost like playing a different game, while keeping much that I liked about the original. In that regard, I'd call LL a rousing success.

[Rooks]

Just because you want Living Legacy to be a failure, it isn't one, and you're going to have a very hard time convincing those who see returned players every day, and play with them.

I'm quite offended by this. Please don't twist my words or put words into my mouth. At no point did I say I wanted this campaign to be a failure. I've stated my expectations and my observations. Frankly I have no interest in convincing you or anyone else of anything. What exactly do you think I have to gain? Favour from Blizzard or Mythic?

It's not the rocket science you are trying to convince us it is.

It is when you've been away from the game for a long time. No, I didn't know that people still group in BoT. No-one told me, do you want me to guess? You've totally missed my point. You are stating facts about the game that I don't know because I hadn't played in years. Please tell me why you think it would be so abhorrent for Sony to have popped up a nice little window saying "Welcome back, did you know that many people of your level will be fighting in BoT, a zone in the Planes of Power". Sorry but if I have to spend hours reading a website to get back up to speed then the game is failing to do what it can to bring me up to speed. 

No, the tutorial is to get through that phase of, errr which key do I press to attack, etc. Obviously it's not going to teach you how to kite HoH. You expected a GM to come hold your hand for two weeks of personalized lessons on how to charm kite HoH on your 67 enchanter? Seriously?

No I expect the game to give me tips on what to do and where to do it. "Hey, you should check out this zone or this quest". How many returning players know about monster missions? Or Ro missions? How many know what those shard things are in the inventory window or where you get them. "Did you know you can earn shards by doing this?". It's not exactly asking for the moon is it.

A new server? What is the point of that to returning players, who have existing characters of all levels, some of them almost as old as the game, and various friends who still play and guilds they used to play with. I don't want a new server and neither do the returning friends I play with, we want our game and our characters back that we left, that was the whole point.

Ah, so because you don't want a new server then no-one should be allowed to have one. I see. Here's an odd fact for you. June 2006 was the most successful month EQ had in many many years. What happened that month? A new server happened. I know a number of people who returned to the game because of that new server and stayed in the game for several months because of it. People like rerolling and they like to do this on fresh, new economy servers. That might not appeal to you but it appeals to a lot of people.

However, if you have to start over, you can of course do that, but people aren't leveling in the same zones anymore that they did 9 years ago. If you want low level people to play with, go play in Blightfire Moors. Regardless, you're never going to see as many new players leveling up as in the old days; on the other hand, it's a lot easier now.

Again, information you have that a returning player doesn't.

I'm not trying to convince you to come back to EQ. I just don't agree with your lost opportunity view. Not at all. It's about the opposite of my own experience and that of the friends I play with.

It sounds like you are simply burned out on EQ and not coming back no matter what. But trying to convince those of us who are playing and enjoying the game how bad it all is, is futile.

I have zero problem with you disagreeing with my opinion but I take offense at your attitude in doing so. I wrote a friendly post about what I thought was wrong with the campaign and it didn't deserve the type of response you gave. You've twisted my words and wrote a patronising post back. If you want to throw insults in my direction you'll find I'm more than capable of insulting you back.

[Stargrace]

They did give tips, though.

There are / were message about seeking out npc in PoK to find out where to go for your levels, what had changed in the world, items about gear, and all sorts of things. You never had to go searching through all sorts of pages of notes to find any of that. There were also the eqplayer forums, which mentioned the same thing, and notes for all living legacy participants.

But again. You have to be willing to actually do some of the work yourself, in order to take advantage of the things SOE supplied. They don't just fall into your lap. I find it interesting that many other people managed to take advantage of all of this, without too much difficulty, but you seem to have had trouble with it all.

Not to mention, for the most part, everyone on the general channel is exceptionally helpful. Mention you're a new returning player in need of some questions to be answered, and folks jump at the chance. I know I had to figure a few things out and had no issues getting help so long as I was polite and patient with people responding.

[Stargrace]

Just as a little side note..

EQplayers.com -> Forums -> The Newbie Zone

Under "The Newbie Zone" at the very top of the post, stickied - are the following (which you barely have to look for, it's not searching through oodles of notes and seems to make sense if you're a returning player to actually check it out)

- Hot zone list
- Living Legacy Promotion - returning players check this out
- Guide to choosing and creating a character
- The returning player FAQ thread



... Seems like there's lot of options, aside from just those offered in game.
Since when is asking for help seen as a bad thing? If you're new, simply ask someone for some pointers. No one's going to point and laugh, there has been plenty of returning people and the same questions get asked every day. The resources are there, it's up to players to take advantage of them.